| Author |
 Topic  |
|
azgolfer
USA
16 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2009 : 20:11:58
|
|
Do you think the Moe Norman swing is for everyone? I purchased the Graves CD that demonstrates the grip, posture and swing of Moe Norman as taught by GGA. The CD has several examples, very well done, of Mr. Graves hitting the 6 iron, 3 wood and driver all very straight and dead on. Then I took that experience to the driving range and most importantly to the course and I wish I could tell you that everything is wonderful but I found a different experience. My performance was that, when I wasn't topping or hitting fat on the ball, control was an issue, particularly pulling the ball!! I had very high hopes that this swing would be the silver bullet. An easy swing to learn that would allow me to hit the ball straight more ofthen than not, but so far it seems difficult to translate what I saw into reality. Very frustrating! It feels like if I want to learn how to hit with Moe's technique, one MUST to attend a Graves school, none of which are close to me, to learn the proper method of the swing? I am just so frustarted and disappointed that what I saw I could not translate into a repeatable swing for me.
|
|
|
Scott_R
Administrator
USA
2192 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 13:34:16
|
azgolfer,
To answer your first question, it is simply Yes. Moe's swing is for everyone. WHY? It is a simpler way to move a golf club 'on plane', which a club MUST do in order to strike a golf ball straight. Simple as that.
I can certainly understand your frustration, having experienced it myself on more than one occasion. The mind tells us that Moe's swing simply makes "sense" to us, but the body seems to find it difficult to perform.
There is one comment in your post that stands out to me; "I had very high hopes that this swing would be the silver bullet." In the reality of golf, I believe we all know there is no such thing as an "instant" fix, although 98% of golf marketing tells us there is. Add that to the reality of the 'instant gratification' society in which we live, and if you take a new 'swing' to the range with a bucket of 100 golf balls and it doesn't "work", then it must be flawed. Nothing could be further from the truth, and deep down, we know better.
Some things you must keep in mind;
1 - Moe took 5 years to feel like he had "mastered" his move.
2 - Todd, to this day after 15 years of swing like Moe, still works on his golf swing
3 - Moe's golf swing isn't a destination, it's a journey.
It's that last point I'd like to develop further.
You have to look at improving your golf swing, no matter what methodology, as a process. The most obvious benefit of Moe's swing is that is biomechanically more efficient, meaning less moving parts, AND the fact that we have a model, someone to emulate. The vast majority of golfers have no such luxury, they simply flail away with the latest 'quick fix' from Golf Digest or Golf magazine, eternally searching for the next 'bandaid' to get them through the next round.
Our (GGA) approach with Moe Norman is counter to what nearly all modern golf instruction is all about - we preach modeling and MASTERY. Our belief is very simple; if you do what Moe Norman did with a golf club, you will get Moe Norman type results.
That belief in mind, we are always working with students, whether in person in a golf school, online in our Internet Golf Academy, or through out Instructional videos and training aids, to do 1 thing - model Moe.
As you work towards modeling Moe, old habits get in the way, and they die hard. This often leads to short term regression of ball striking abilities. NOBODY is immune to this, even PGA tour players. When you start to make changes in your swing, which is a subconscious action, ball results are not immediately ideal, or even pretty. That is why we recommend taking your focus OFF the golf ball and onto the golf club (ie, video feedback), and if necessary, STAY off the golf course. You simply CANNOT play good golf and change your golf swing at the same time. Again, tour players also suffer this same affliction, are we any different?
That being said, there are options for getting instruction from GGA without attending a golf school. The training aids are worth every penny, because they teach you exactly what we would teach you in person. Our Internet Golf Academy provides you the option of getting feedback directly, without the expense of a golf school and the associated travel.
Bottom line is that modeling your golf swing after Moe Norman is very much like going on a diet. You set a goal to lose 30lbs. in 6 months, and you eat right, you work out religiously, and at the 6 month mark you jump on the scales and have lost 28lbs. Did you fail?
As you get closer and closer to matching Moe's swing as the model, the results (ball striking) will become more and more consistent.
Scott
|
Scott R.
GGA Director of Customer Relations
scottr@swinglikemoe.com |
 |
|
|
edmp
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 16:44:20
|
Scott speaks the truth. Get the training aids-club,alignment and ball pos. to start. A video or two and maybe join: knowmoe.com. Bottom line, I feel this is hands down the easiest way to swing a golf club on plane-period. But alas, it is no silver bullet.
You will also find a lot of support here in the members section.
Good luck,
Chuck |
|
|
|
Toddg
Administrator
USA
2426 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 22:05:00
|
azgolfer,
A proper golf swing is simply correct body movement. There is no such thing as a good golfer - there is only good bio-mechanics. Therefore, you must only work on the proper movements, the rest works itself out. Results are only the results of proper movements. If all you have to work on is proper movements - doesn't that take the pressure off of hitting it better?
Todd |
|
|
|
Vinnie
Canada
185 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 13:03:25
|
Azgolfer
Moes way via the Graves Golf School is absolutely a better way to swing the golf club. However, it's still golf. Still the hardest game in the world. I have gone from a 22 handicap to currently at 4 since I started with these guys, but not without a lot of hard work. Friends of mine that work equally as hard at conventional golf are still stuck in double digit handicap teritory.
A good golf swing does not happen in an afternoon at the range, it is a lifetime journey. This is the best road to use for that trip.
I feel your pain about the school locations, I live in Western Canada, but you do not have to go to the schools, you just want to because they are so doggone much fun.
Some of my favourite people in the world have been met at GGS schools and camps, and I for one can think of no better way to spend a week of holidays.
Welcome and enjoy the journey. Vinnie |
|
|
|
rustyredcab
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 14:12:30
|
There are a lot of good reasons to try and learn to swing like Moe. Here's what I preach as the difference between Graves Golf teaching Moe's swing and everyone else I've met who is trying to improve: Our Model and our method are consistent -- it stays the same every year. As Vinnie and others have said, it is a journey. And, it is a hard game. My very good conventional golfer friends have a certain swing unique to each of them. When they take a lesson or get coaching, they tweak and adjust their swing. They too are on a journey. The difference is, they are less sure of where they are going. This week it is about one thing, next week another. It is like taking a road trip and adjusting your route by how it feels that day. And when you stop and ask for directions, you get an opinion about the best way to proceed that may or may not be sending you to the same place as the last directions you received. With Moe's swing, I have been following the same map and striving for the same destination for a while. It has been a great trip. I get off course, but can easily get course corrections. I know what I'm trying to do this year and it will be the same next year. I'm a better golfer as measured by handicap than I was before Graves -- but not as dramatic as Vinnie and some others. My high scores are much lower than they were before Graves and my lower scores are a bit lower. I promise you the game is more fun. When I'm swinging close to like Moe, I love driving the ball high, straight and longer than just about anyone with whom I play. I love hitting great golf shots. I'd score better if I didn't try great shots so often.
I was a 12.9 index when I met the Graves crew. I had about half of my scores in the 90's and 100's. The scores that counted were good enough for me to be a 12.9 index. Today, only two of my last 20 scores are in the 90's (90 and 94), I won't even be using some 85's on the next revision, and should be back down near a 9.5. Those are not awesome numbers like Vinnie and Dan and others have seen. I have loved my ride and am close to busting through to a low handicap -- one of these years.
Join our journey. You'll know where you are going and have fun on the way.
Russ |
Build Your Game Camp 2005
2-Day Alumni school 2006 & 2007
5-day Alumni Camp 2008 (The MOEniacs) |
Edited by - rustyredcab on 09/22/2009 14:15:45 |
|
|
|
TGGS
Administrator
USA
2140 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 15:34:31
|
I think most of you that have been with us know how I feel on this subject... but as most of you also know, I won't miss the opportunity to jump on the topic again.
Here is my belief:
1. If you think golf is an easy game, easy to learn, easy to make changes, etc.. you are in the wrong sport. Do something else - life is too short to continually get frustrated when something doesn't change overnight.
2. Those that are successful in this sport (and when I talk success, I am not talking being Tiger Woods - I am talking about those that cut their handicap in 1/2, those that show improvement every year, those that are better today than they were yesterday, etc..) are those that enjoy the challenge.
3. Golf is the greatest sport EVER created - it is up to you - only you, it is you, yourself and you. If you hit a bad shot, only one person will / should be upset - you. If you hit a good shot, there is typically one person happy and one upset - you are happy, your opponent is upset (cry me a river...). You determine how good you get, you determine how fast you get better, etc... You don't have to wait for the team to practice, you don't have to wait for an opponent to play against (like Tennis) - you can practice 24 / 7 if you like - up to you.
4. 99.9% of golfers have no idea where / how to improve. They think golf is a game of hit it far and score. It could not be further from the truth. Golf is an "artist" game. Creating shots off the tee, to the green, around the green and on the green. There is no perfect way to play a shot and no imperfect way to play a shot - the fewest shots is what matters.
5. After years of teaching, I am convinced a "certain thought process" helps you get better faster. I think this because there are certain groups of "professionals" that seem to grasp the swing faster than others, those include engineers, accountants, surgeons.... (there are others, but will tell you what I mean...). The personality type is one that performs a step (step 1) makes sure it is perfect and they understand it before going to step #2. Perform Step #2 - understand it and make sure perfect before going to step #3, etc...
Think of an engineer - if he/she is building a building and the base / floor isn't perfect, what will happen to the 10th floor.... an accountant, if the original calculations on line # 2 aren't correct, what will be happening on line # 10, etc... etc... think you get my point (now all you doctors, engineers, accountants, etc.. don't get your heads too big - there are always exceptions to the norm...)
But I think you get my point - when this type of student works on their golf swing, they master the specifics (fundamentals)first than go on. They don't look for short cuts, they don't look for the end result, they are more focused on the path, making sure they stay on path, knowing they will eventually reach the end and still be on path.
6. If you are looking for a quick fix - good luck. I will be happy to email you 1,000,000s of links to websites with "quick fixes". If they worked - we'd all be scratch golfers...
7. Mixing models - my BIGGEST complaint. I won't go to much into detail as hopefully most of you already know my stance, but if you use part of Moe's swing, part of NGs swing, part of others swing, you will NEVER be consistent, NEVER master the model, NEVER be where you want to be, etc.. etc... Go ahead and put the Ford parts on the Chevy - you drive it, I won't. To me, mixing models with Moe's swing is more like putting Pinto parts on a Lexus (or something like that....).
Enough said (for now).
I'll be honest... if you question whether this is for you or not, probably isn't.... when there is doubt there are excuses. Where there are excuses there is uncertainty, where there is uncertainty there are poor results. Would rather you find another model that you are certain about - enjoy that path. We will always be here when you are certain and come back......
Tim Graves, PGA
timg@swinglikemoe.com |
Tim Graves, PGA
timg@swinglikemoe.com |
|
|
|
azgolfer
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 10:01:41
|
Vinnie, Chuck and Russ,
Thanks for your comments, they show, we all love this game! One of the Graves Bros seemed a bit defensive to my post: "I'll be honest... if you question whether this is for you or not, probably isn't.... when there is doubt there are excuses", . I guess I could have expressed myself better than to suggest doubt about their swing method in my question, "Is this swing for everyone?", I surely don't know their swing method to express confirmation or doubt, so that was not my intention, but I am grateful for the feedback on the forum and hopefully I'll take some ideas with me. I sometimes feel like the poster child for the next swing idea because I have tried many. This method shares some similarities to the Symple Swing Method(both single axis)that I tried a few years ago, but not as radical as that one and I like that. Yesterday, again struggeled on the course to find any rhythm and consistency and so I shot poorly. My only swing thought was to keep my trail foot planted, but I found that I frequently cut across the ball. It is so disappointing to see my scores going up!!! You guys have been at this awhile, so is there anything else you can share about your experiences as you have learned and ingrained the Moe Swing? Can you think of an "A-ha" moment when something clicked and things fell into place....for at least a day or two?
Lastly, azgolfer is not looking for "excuses" for not shooting as well as I would like or for not being able to properly execute the concepts and principles of the Moe Swing. I'm as dedicated and committed as anyone to better myself at this game, but I know that I am the only one in my way! So I like everyone else want to know, "How do I take what I have seen and heard and apply it"? I came across this swing method online, followed up and invested my hard earned money in the video so that says something about my commitment, at least I think it does. Kevin |
|
|
|
dbmeyers
48 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 10:23:06
|
| My initial attempt at this swing was not great...but I noticed the swing felt easier and I did make crisper ball contact. My misses were not as poor...and gone were shanks and topped shots. But my "A-ha" moment was sending in video back in July. It was eye opening to see how big my swing was and how my wrists were breaking down...after working on hand movement for about a week I sent a video in and Todd went to the next flaw..my lower body. By this time my ball striking was much better....unfortunately I'm still working on my lower body movement two months later! But the point is, instead of wasting time on the range and on the course send a video in and they can get you going in the right direction. If you go to the range a few times and play a few rounds your already spending more than 1 months worth of video lessons. What's really nice to is you have the lessons on digital file and can access from any internet connection...even your smart phone if you have one. I'm going to be joining back up soon to really get this swing down.....I'm realistic about golf after struggling for so many years, it's almost impossible to do it by yourself. The tools are here to get better on your own, but to really get a solid, repeatable swing, video lessons or a Graves school is needed for most people. Good luck..like others said in this post this is the place to get better at golf. If it's worked for me, it will work great for you....but it does take some work and dedication. |
Dan M. |
|
|
|
edmp
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 12:01:57
|
Kevin,
Don't overact to Tims' comments,if you knew him you would understand.Those of us that do know him understand his position. Let me just say that he speaks from a level of dedication and comittment that you would be hard pressed to find anywhere else. Just call it an ethusiastic response,not defense.
To your question,I have had several ah-ha moments. A big one is the right grip.The training club makes that easy,however,without the correct grip you can practice til the cows come home,get everything else correct and still not progress.So get a grip-LOL.
Next is convincing myself to not overswing.GGA has a drill called the 1.5 drill that helps. A swing key I use personally is that I start down as soon as I hinge my hands.Feels like my club is still at knee level,yet video shows a complete backswing.Keep is simple and short.
There are others but this should get you started. Using video or at least a mirror is useful.
Chuck |
|
|
|
rustyredcab
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 13:16:10
|
Let me share the "ah-ha" I have had (and seen others have) at school -- even alumni school. Tim touched on it in his 7th point. You really need to let go of the parts of your current swing that you like even whether from some other model or just your comfort. You need to try and copy this Moe swing in the every detail. At my first school, this took over a day for me and even longer for a few others to believe. Once I let go of my wish to bring a bit of my old swing to my new swing, I was free to start learning. Moe's swing is remarkably symmetrical. It is unbelievable that he developed this without seeing himself on video. It is a swing one might develop if you did study video. Angles line up. Lines line up. Lots of things are either perpendicular or parallel. It is a way to move the club that is like how one might build a simple machine to swing the club. That is why keeping my old strong grip or standing a little closer to the ball than Moe did, or any other deviation from our model Moe does me an injustice. If I want to swing like Moe, I need to copy Moe in every detail. Do not keep a few old friends from your current swing. Let them go. And don't grab this month's Golf Digest swing tip and try and add it to the mix.
The second "ah-ha" has also also been alluded to here -- what you think and feel you are doing is often not what you actually are doing. Hands on instruction and video show you what you are really doing regardless of what you feel. If at school, it may take a full day to believe your instructors when they tell you that you are or are not doing something. Even seeing myself on video, I can not believe what I see. "Who put that guy, dressed to look like me, on video and told him to swing like that?"
So if you join us, I'd say:
1. go all in and
2. trust the video
and you are two "ah-ha" ahead of most of us when we started.
Russ |
|
|
|
garb
130 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 18:46:58
|
Well, here goes. I'm going to stick my neck out and ask a question related to the original post. I'm not asking this question to make trouble on this forum, I just am frustrated with my own game and my several attempts to get started with the Graves swing. I've played golf for approx. 45 years, never really conquering any swing that really works for me. I ran onto the Graves swing on the internet about 4 years ago, ordered a couple of tapes, and started to work on the fundamentals. I've taken the swing to the driving range several times, but have never felt really comfortable with the swing. I'm starting to think that it may have something to do with my age (74) and the years I have used a CG swing. Have I been using CG for so long that the fundamentals are engrained and can never be changed, or am I close to making the Graves swing work and don't realize that I am close. I guess I am rambling here, but when I saw the original post "do you think the Moe Norman swing is for everyone," it really hit home -- is the Moe Norman swing really for me? I guess this is something that I must work out.
Thanks for listening -- Al |
|
|
|
rustyredcab
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 18:53:47
|
90% of what I work on is trying to break old bad habits from an awful "conventional" swing. Al, I think nearly everyone has the same issue.
Can you teach an old dog a new trick? I think so. If the dog is willing.
This swing is different enough from my olkd swing that the basics are all new. Still, old habits like over swinging and pulling up die hard.
Does that help answer the question? |
Build Your Game Camp 2005
2-Day Alumni school 2006 & 2007
5-day Alumni Camp 2008 (The MOEniacs) |
|
|
|
garb
130 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 20:01:45
|
Your answer helps a lot. This afternoon, I started reviewing my Graves videos, and plan on working with some of the more common GGA drills. Success with my age old CG swing continues to come and go. I need a more consistent swing that doesn't give up on me in the middle of a golf round. I played 9 holes today, had 2 pars, but also had two 8's and one 7. Consistent I'm not. Maybe with a lot of work, I can make my game more consistent. Thanks a lot for your response. I really enjoy this forum. The posts are 99% positive, and
very helpful. I'm on the forum early every morning and read every post.
Al |
|
|
|
CharlieG
USA
107 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 21:19:16
|
Kevin/Al
Heed what some of the more senior advocates are saying. They helped me transition into the Moe Norman swing. The instruction team at the Graves Golf Academy are the best and you will not find any more helpful in the business. Give it a honest chance and work the fundamentals (PVC drill/1,5 drill) as they will put you in position to reap the benefits of this training.
I have experienced much of the same success cited by the others. I know I could achieve more but my range time is severely limited by an extremely bad back. Since I love the game so much, what little time it (the back) allows me to hit golf balls I tend to play rather than spend range time with my training aids. Surgery is scheduled in November, so I planning on restarting again when I'm given the OK medically. It should be easy then since I know where the journey is taking me. Also note that swinging the Moe Norman way is the only reason I can still play. If I were a CGer I'd have been on the sidelines a long time ago.
Wish you both good fortune on your journey and don't hesitate to use this forum to seek suggestion and/or confirmations on your efforts. Get the training aids - THEY WORK |
Charlie
Fairways and Greens
3 Day School 2007 |
|
|
|
garb
130 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 22:24:38
|
Charlie -- thank you very much for your advice. Good luck on your back surgery in Nov. I'm sure the surgery will be very successful and you'll be back in full swing soon. I had my right knee replaced two years ago, and my golf game was slowed down for awhile. I'm now back to playing golf, and anxious to get started with the GGA swing. Please keep us posted on your back progress. Good luck.
Al |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Is This For Everyone?
