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 back swing - how short?
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Natural-duffer


Canada
51 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2007 :  16:25:47  Show Profile Send Natural-duffer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Russ you've been working on the short back swing for awhile, just how short do you go?

Mike I get the same problem as you with the up & down thing and I think for me it's all because I try to take more back swing then my body will allow with out straightening up.

I realized after many months that when doing the PVC drill in order to get the butt of the pipe pointed at the back ball (position 3) I have to raise up slightly because there is just not enough flex in my old wrists and shoulders and hips. If I only go to parallel to the ground with my lead arm with a full wrist cock the butt end of the club points maybe only three and a half feet back of the front ball.

At first it feels like only half a swing but the ball goes as far as it ever did with what I thought was a full swing and I don't move my body up and down so I hit more solid shots.

Russ do you use a short back swing with the PVC drill?

Chuck how's your experimenting with the shot back swing coming?

Darrell

Fairways & greens
ND

edmp



USA
1669 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2007 :  20:25:38  Show Profile  Visit edmp's Homepage Send edmp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darrell,
The NBS(no back swing)concept done with GGA single axis fundamentals is working great for me.It simplifies the simpliest move in golf even more.I set up to the ball and I have developed my version of NBS.Essiently,I use the one piece takaway alla PVC drill to position 1.Then I cock my wrists and move about halfway to position 2.From there ,I stop and then I pump to the completion of position 2 and swing down and through.Most importantly I am very deliberate and precise on the takaway to position I will call 1.5.When and only when I feel certain that I am creating the correct plane and leverage angles I do the pump move.

In essence my swing looks slow and deliberate more than a full stop with no backswing.Therefore,I feel less self concious.Many would not say that I wasn't using a backswing.Tempo has always been an issue with me and this technique makes it hard to not have good tempo.

On the range,I have been hitting the most solid shots of my life and so far this is the most repeatable swing I have ever had.Today,I took it to the golf course for the first time.I am pleased to say I was able to bring my new swing with me.I didn't keep score and would admit that my score was not great.Lately ,I have neglected my short game in order to work on and fix my ball striking.However,I have a great deal of confidence in my putting and a reasonable amount in my chipping and putting.I was rusty today but know I can fix that part of the game.My ball striking was better than it has been in quite a while and that was most gratifing.

To put this in perspective,I told my golf buddie that I would not necessarily reccomend this to everyone to do.However,I do believe that everyone would play better if they swung like Moe.So what I am saying is that this suits me based on necessity.I just can't coordinate a smooth backswing and tempo and have struggled with it since I started playing golf.With this technique that issue is solved and I am having fun again.

Remember you asked so I won't apologise for the long winded response.LOL

Chuck
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Natural-duffer



Canada
51 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  11:31:05  Show Profile Send Natural-duffer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chuck

To start with I apologize for the mistakes in my post, I do proof read and check spelling yet I still miss stuff. When I said (position 3) I of course meant (position 2)- the top of the back swing and when I asked about your shot back swing I meant short.

Anyway if I read you right you are still taking a full back swing getting all the way to position 2 - the butt end of the club is pointed at the ball 5' back and 1' to the inside - you just get there a little different.

What I'm doing now is a shortened back swing or should I say all the back swing I need.

I've been faithfully doing the PVC drill slowly for months making sure I was getting to the positions as Todd described them on the "Troubles & Solutions" DVD. What I didn't realize was that in order to get the butt of the pipe to "point directly" at that back ball I had to raise my upper body up just a little.
Since I was doing this slowly and turning my head to look and make sure I was indeed getting to the correct position on the first couple reps I would continue doing the drill trying to ingrain that stretching feeling at the top of the back swing. With the pipe, since I wasn't actually hitting anything I could easily and slowly move down into position 3 and never noticed the upper body movement.

The problem being that when I tried to hit a ball and moved up a little on the back swing I had to move back down that exact same amount on the forward swing to get a solid hit. If I concentrated hard enough I could do it most of the time but although some days were good others were awful and I never have been able to feel any confidence in my swing at all.

I've started doing the PVC drill with my position 2 just where everything gets tight, lead arm parallel to the ground and a full wrist cock with the club shaft a little past 90* to my lead arm. Like I said the butt end of the pipe points more or less directly about 3 1/2 to 4' back of the front ball and at the line between the two balls.

I'm going out to play this afternoon so I'll see how it stands up in the real world.

Darrell

Fairways & greens
ND
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rustyredcab



USA
845 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  12:51:02  Show Profile  Visit rustyredcab's Homepage Send rustyredcab a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I FEEL like I am taking a really short backswing. I try to get to position 2 and no further. The reason it feels so short is that I do not over-cock my wrists as I am often want to do. I just checked the angel and it is slightly less than 90*. The ball seems to be flying off the clubface even with the short feeling backswing. I think the distance is happening when I have a good one piece take-away with a straight lead arm. AND when my trail elbow FEELS almost in front of my body at the backswing. This is resulting in a powerful feeling swing with better contact. I had been turning around too much and getting my trail arm out of good position. I'm having better luck getting in the right position by taking the club back very, very slowly. It feels really slow but, my regular group did not say anything this morning and they would have if it looked way different to them. All I got today was compliments on my short irons and no notice or mention of my slower backswing. Likely it feels much slower than it is.

Russ

Build Your Game Camp 2005
2-Day Alumni school 2006 & 2007
5-day Alumni Camp 2008 (The MOEniacs)

from 18.0 to 13.2 with NG
from 13.2 to 6.1 with GGA
currently 6.9 and happy
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Natural-duffer



Canada
51 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2007 :  18:42:16  Show Profile Send Natural-duffer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK when you say position 2 what do you mean Russ? Are your hands above your shoulders and the butt end of the club pointed at a spot 5' back of the ball your hitting like Todd's?

You say you checked your angel (was that your guardian angel?) and were getting slightly less then 90*, again I'm not sure what you mean. Is the angle between your lead arm and the club shaft more or less then 90*?

I can get to about 90* max but my wife who's wrists are more flexible can easily get to 80* or less between her lead arm and club shaft. Is that what you would call over-cock?

Also for both Russ and Chuck, what is happening down below? With your very slow or no back swing styles when do you transfer your weight?

You mentioned how easy it was to have good tempo with NBS Chuck yet that was for me the hardest part. Starting from the top I couldn't get the hang of timing the weight shift with my arms & hands.

What does tempo mean to you guys?

For me it's the flow of the swing from back to forward, the whole weight transfer and start into the down swing with a smooth transfer of energy.

If I do a real slow back swing I can't just tear into the down swing, I have to have a slight hesitation as the club kind of floats to the top and starts down and I transfer my weight to my lead side. Once I get the club started straight I can power on and usually keep it straight.

But if I do a slightly faster BS starting slow for the first move to position 1 then moving smoothly with increasing speed to the top and back down all in one piece with the weight transfer happening before I actually get to the top, fully automatic, then I get some of my best and most powerful shots. If I can keep the timing right, the tempo.

If I take the club back quickly but try to hesitate at the top then my weight will have already transfered and the timing will be shot.
I used to hum a tune in my head to swing to in order to get the timing smooth but it got in the way of concentrating on the target.

Anyway we didn't get to the course today so I'm going to head back out to the driving mat for a bit more fun.

Fairways & greens
ND
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rustyredcab



USA
845 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2007 :  10:33:36  Show Profile  Visit rustyredcab's Homepage Send rustyredcab a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My hands are at my shoulder height-- maybe even a little less like the bottom of the sholder. My lead arm is near parallel to the ground and my club is 90* from my lead arm (it feels less that 90* but it is very close). The butt of the club is pointed back 5' and 1' inside the line (I hesitate to say "just like Todd.")

I do not think about weight shift, I just let that happen as a result of moving my arms. My only thoughts related to weight shift are trying to face the ball at impact and staying balanced with a solid base. For me that means keeping my butt out and my front knee flexed.

I do not try to swing easy, I try to swing "solid." I want a smooth tempo. I want my downswing tempo to look like Freddy or Ernie or Anika -- that seemingly slow, smooth swing with surprising distance. My slow backswing tempo is 1,2,3,4 (set) - swing with each of the beats feeling like one second -- likely that it actually about 70 beats per minute.

Not sure if any of that helps. I'm playing a very long (7100 yards) and very hard course tomorrow that I have never seen. I'll see if this holds up and keeps me straight.
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Ironman

339 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2007 :  19:56:51  Show Profile Send Ironman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My two cents worth,

I find that if I can get fully leveraged with a shortish backswing, I can move more aggressively through the ball and probably make better contact because there is a shorter distance to travel. Less chance of getting out of position. Also less "timing" needed to get back to and through the ball properly. If you are fully leveraged, on balance and in a proper position, I don't see how the backswing can be too short. The key is getting extention and leverage while keeping the swing compact.

Jim
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edmp



USA
1669 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2007 :  08:24:25  Show Profile  Visit edmp's Homepage Send edmp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Guys,
Here are my conclusions on the NBS (no backswing swing) and the short backswing.After a couple of weeks experimenting I feel that the NBS is a great drill to learn how to execute a good verticle drop.Also you can play with it ,however its not necessary.

I agree with Jim (Ironman)that getting fully leveraged with as short a backswing as possible is an excellant technique.One of my major issues is overswinging causing swaying and the premature releasing of leverage.As they taught me in the Army KISS it(keep it simple stupid).

Finally,if I start to struggle I feel that the NBS drill will get me back on plane easily and quickly.With it I get into a leveraged and balanced position that I can feel and Hold then swing to finish.

Chuck
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rustyredcab



USA
845 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2007 :  17:21:40  Show Profile  Visit rustyredcab's Homepage Send rustyredcab a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Will my short and slow backswing hold up on the course?

Played Erin Hills in Wisconsin, a very long course from the regular Men's tees -- 6544 yards. The slow and short backswing held up well. Shot 81. Played it again from other regular Men's tees at 7112 yards that afternoon -- not the 7800 back tees or the 8600 tips. My brain would not let me keep the backswing short on the tee. I told my playing partner what I was trying to do and he noticed that I was way above shoulder height with my lead arm on my backswing and I could feel extra wrist cock. I could not make myself not "need" that extra yardage even though I know I did not need the extra yardage. If I'd have driven the ball like I did in the morning, I'd have been in great shape. I shot 97 in the afternoon. I think brain surgery is in order.

Russ

Build Your Game Camp 2005
2-Day Alumni school 2006 & 2007
5-day Alumni Camp 2008 (The MOEniacs)

from 18.0 to 13.2 with NG
from 13.2 to 6.1 with GGA
currently 6.9 and happy
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edmp



USA
1669 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2007 :  19:55:25  Show Profile  Visit edmp's Homepage Send edmp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rusty,
I think the waiting list for that surgery is a long one.
Chuck
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gkyle
Moderator



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2007 :  05:03:15  Show Profile Send gkyle a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Ironman. I've actually picked up significant distance just by swinging much shorter and using my natural aggression to smash that little jewel. I did find a great use for the no backswing approach though - it's a great tool to have when stuck in the pine trees with branches in your path.

Greg
Hdcp: 5.2
BYGC, August 2007



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rustyredcab



USA
845 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2007 :  12:53:45  Show Profile  Visit rustyredcab's Homepage Send rustyredcab a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No need for surgery today. Decided to keep it slow and short. Best ball striking day in a long time. A great comment came from a playing partner after a few holes when he said, "There is not much going on with your swing today." I keep that thought all day. "Nothing going on..."

Tied my personal best score with a 76. What a game.

Russ

Build Your Game Camp 2005
2-Day Alumni school 2006 & 2007
5-day Alumni Camp 2008 (The MOEniacs)

from 18.0 to 13.2 with NG
from 13.2 to 6.1 with GGA
currently 6.9 and happy
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gkyle
Moderator



USA
104 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2007 :  06:22:32  Show Profile Send gkyle a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like that - "Not much going on..." What a wonderful game.

Greg
Hdcp: 5.2
BYGC, August 2007



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Somalia Northern Region
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