| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| straightshot |
Posted - 05/21/2004 : 11:07:36
Has it been discontinued? I have checked over the last few days and I keep getting referred to a web search.
John
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Just Woods and Wedges |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 17:03:53
Thanks, Steve. You know, I play that way all the time, too...windy or not. It's a fair criticism that it's not "classic" NG and a compensation of mine that I use because I don't have game in the classic Moe swing sense.
I certainly would like to be classic Moe; but the Pelz-type partial swings sure are repeatable distance-wise. I'm working on marrying that multiple backswing idea for DISTANCE control with the classic Moe swing for ACCURACY control. My comment about it not being so compatible with NG SA setup was because of the wrist cock at 9 o'clock and 7:30. I had been shown an NG backswing by a NGCI that kept the wrists straight and uncocked longer into the backswing. But after watching Ed Woronicz (sp?) again on the NG DVD, he clearly is using a 90* wrist cock at those two positions that is compatible with both NG and Pelz....so I agree with you. I don't know that it's heresy to modify your backswing for distance control if everything else: SA setup, wide stance, quiet lower body, etc are true blue NG.
I play target golf because I don't have the game to hit the tar out of the ball on the tee and then a LW to 8 feet. Therefore, reliable distance control is so important to my particular course management.
I'm going to try to still do both and hope I don't get excommunicated.
Went to the range today and was feeling much better about the 'new' NG grip that the guys on the forum here suggested. I know now that my NGCI was wrong. Driver was mostly hitting the bottom of the net at the end of the range or 4-5 feet up on it (net is 245yds); all within a 30 yard wide dispersion. 3W 220yds at 80% swing and 5W 200yds at 80%. 4 out of 5 were straight; only 5 of the 90 balls were truly bad mi****s shots so virtually all would have been in fairway.
Appreciate the comments and suggestions about that awful grip from all you guys. I finally felt that I had a SA swing today.
JWW
Edited by - Just Woods and Wedges on 06/29/2004 17:10:40 |
| baldelli |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 13:49:24
JWW, My feelings are that if you have invested the time and money with NG then you are finally at the right spot. Todd is great with the full swing and teaching toward the Moe Norman model; Tim is a short game wizard. Actually, anyone interested in improving their game would benefit from GGA.
I disagree with your thoughts that the Pelz-type distance control (clock method)is not applicable to the Single Axis swing. I find myself playing this way if there is alot of wind, my game is off a little that particular day, and those times (too often) that I am in the trees.
Welcome to the sight,
Steve
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| Jesse H |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 12:41:56
JWW, hello and welcome, The local NG instructors in my area did not help me (at the time) I attended there 1 day schools. I went to three different schools with 3 different instrutors (not mentioning names)and felt I did not get it. However now that I truly understand the swing after attending the LIL Moe Tourney last year, with the help of Todd, Tim, Ken Martin, and even some tips and help from a bunch of great guys at the tourney, to include Razman,Glory, El Ted and many others, I now look back at those lessons from the NG schools I attended way back and say that's what they were trying to convey. I guess Todd, Tim, Ken Martin are just more hands on, I really don't know how they made it sink in, they just did. Try one of there schools or attend the LIL Moe Tourney next year, and you will have the best time, meet great people interested in the same thing you are, and truly learn the SA Swing. Good luck
Jesse H
Edited by - Jesse H on 06/28/2004 12:51:47 |
| Mojo23 |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 08:09:38
JWW -
I too had problems with my local NCGI and after taking lessons for 6 months and not making any progress, I decided to stop going to him. Having said that, I can say that there are NCGi's that are very good at what they do (many people have said so) , but on the other hand there have been many complaints as well. This is the problem. BAsically, we as students don't really know what we are going to get when we see an NCGI and take everything they say as gospel. Definitely your set up (strong both hands) will have a tendency to cause you hooks if you release well or perhaps pushes as you don't. I used to have my trail hand palm pointing right at the sky and I can tell you it was hook city. I had to learn again after I attended the Graves school to have a neutral lead hand and a less strong trail hand and then I had to learn how to release the club. This was difficult at first since the extremely strong grip had taught me to hold back on the release in order not to shut the face. I had to deal with fades and sometimes slices for a while until I learned to release the club again.
The good thing about the Graves is that you will get instruction from the folks that originally trained the NCGI's and also the folks that have direct contact and instruction with Moe Norman. Nothing better than to get instruction from the source.
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| Vinnie |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 06:55:00
Welcome Wooods $ Wedges
I too was introduced to NG by the videos from Mother Corp. It helped but more was required so I saw a NGCI. He sent me home with a lousy grip, closed face and suspect instruction. Then I found these guys. They are the real deal. As I get closer to the model, I get closer to scratch. You are in the right place now. Enjoy the ride. Vinnie
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| Gazza |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 06:50:35
JWW,
Check your private email box for my apology.
Regards,
Gazza
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| Just Woods and Wedges |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 03:00:32
Thank you, Scott, for an on-point response.
Checked out the etip regarding proper grip....WOW! That is WAY different than what was taught by the NGCI I saw.
Thanks for your observations. Whew! People can get touchy about deviation here!
Any chance the Graves roadshow will be in the Washington, DC area sometime in the next year and not just Virginia Beach?
JWW
Edited by - Just Woods and Wedges on 06/27/2004 03:15:45 |
| Scott_R |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 02:38:57
JWW,
You spefically mentioned the grip in your last post.
I too had a REALLY strong grip before working with Todd. Still fight releasing the club today because of it, like what you say you are experiencing.
Check out the etip on the swinglikemoe.com website regarding the grip if you haven't already. It's awesome.
Warning though, if you do decide to change the grip, don't expect the little white ball to behave like you want it to. When Todd finally convinced me to change my grip, that little with bastage was doing some pretty funky stuff for a while, until my body learned to "do it right".
Bottom line, I think you're in the right spot. You know your game, and want to improve. That's what we're all here for.
As you're here longer and are around the 'ideology' of the Graves' instruction, you'll discover the why's and what fors you are looking for. Nothing wrong with this at all. It's just your own personal journey down the path. Todd's taken it, Tim's taken it, we're all taking it now.
Here's to the journey!
Scott R.
GGA alumni
TGGS/GGA Marketing Director
scottr@swinglikemoe.com |
| Just Woods and Wedges |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 00:58:33
Gazza, I guess I'm just trying to figure out why the things viewed and experienced in (1) the original video circa 1995; and (2) the set of NG DVD's I purchased last year; and (3) the lessons of the 1-day NG school I attended haven't resulted in more predictable progress. I've done enough grass cutting drills to warrant giving away my lawnmower.
And no, Gazza, I'm not about mischief. That's neither my purpose nor style. (maybe SteveNG could vouch for me).
Yes, Gazza, I confess that I've adopted some compensatory mechanics, but simply because the NG results were less than promoted locally by a NGCI. If showing some staying power and continued interest in figuring out why NG hasn't been quite as expected and what I can do about it is considered "mischief" here because I'm describing what I'm doing to compensate for lack of "classic" results then maybe my original hesitation about being able to ask questions wasn't far off.
Oh, yeah....I still have some questions about whether I was taught the grip incorrectly in the first place at my one day NG school. About whether, despite the markings on the all-weather grips and notwithstanding the Natural Golfer Magazine article on the all-weather grips, the NGCI who taught me was correct in telling me that the markings were all wrong, to forget them and just listen to him. If it's correct technique to have my trail hand palm straight up with my thumb on the back edge of the grip at the same time that my forward hand is so rotated that I see at least three or more knuckles. I'm just seeking a second opinion from peers as well as someone as highly regarded as Todd.
My instinct tells me that my hooks are caused by the incredibly strong grip; that my slices then occur because I am subliminally not releasing so to artificially open the face and avoid the hook thereby setting myself up for a slice; and that the NGCI's VERY STRONG grip is actually wrong. And my instinct tells me that the NGCI was also incorrect about only using full swings for clubs.
But....who to ask?! How about the Graves site so many extol for that second opinion?! I am only looking for confirmation or denial that my paltry several hundred dollars actually bought valid instruction....and, if not, then some guidance.
OK, so I'm not a lemming. Lemmings don't have questions. Mischief maker, indeed!
Edited by - Just Woods and Wedges on 06/27/2004 02:35:58 |
| arush |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 22:16:37
JJW
You asked some good questions and I am not sure I can answer them in the most helpful way.
First definition of "clicked"
Some golfers seem to think you "click" only when you swing the same way every time. However, that is a fantasy as even the best pros hit the fairways and greens about 70% of the time. No one swings the same way every time. It is a % game.
I think you could repeat your swing on a regular basis with QUALITY practice in a year's time.
To get to quality practice, you have to have knowledge of the swing. There is really valuable knowledge at this site. The etips and the frequently asked questions contain excellent information. I learn more quickly with pictures and verbiage than with other methods. For example, the etip on set up would require that you take a yard stick with you to practice to be sure the distance from the ball is correct.
My experience with NG began with the original NG videos. I have continued to buy all the tapes and DVD's. I have taken 4 1 hour lessons. Two from NG instructors which were not helpful. One from an NG instructor with the help of Todd. The NG instructor was able to get my hands to move correctly. One from Todd which for the first time made me understand straight line motion. It took me about 6 months to make my hands go straight back and straight down the line. (Note I didn't say club head.) I consider a technique mastered when I don't have to consciously think about it when swinging.
However, understanding the true model came just recently from watching the 2 newest DVD's by Todd. Prior to this I had certain concepts that never varied i.e. feet width, closed shoulder at address, grip, face the ball at impact, arm generated body movement, etc. However, the videos really put all the pieces together.
Finally, I must say I am not at good at practicing as some. I try to do quality practice and I will increase practice when certain aspects of the game don't work. I normally try to get to the course about 1 hour before I play and work on my game. I play 3 times a week.
In short, if I were you, I would first give some thought to your own definition of "clicked". This is important so you don't get discouraged as you change.
I would get enough knowledge so I could practice the "right" things.
I tend to relate time and money. For example,if you could afford the 5 day remake your game camp, then you would be progressing much faster. The more time you spend with Todd, the faster you will progress. If you watch the latest DVD's you will have the model clearly defined. Then I think it would depend upon your ability to do self analysis of your swing.
Very rambling. Hope this helps.
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| Gazza |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 19:35:23
JWW,
I guess I had nothing better to do this morning ... so I read through all 4 pages of this stream. And now feel prompted to comment ...
As I understand it your first concern here was the way a member was treated. To that I would simply say that I've joined other SA forums and quickly exited due the chaos which seemed to ensue from certain comments raised. Too, there was an element of contentiousness which seemed to be more entertaining for some than any other purpose.
Whereas I've been a member of this forum for over six months now ... and find the focus primarily on swing mechanics ala Moe. (Not so chaotic.) Too, during my attendance here there have only been two chaps arise with apparently the purpose to stir up mischief ... and they were quickly dealt with, in a civilized manner in my view, by our friendly moderators. All other participants on this forum I find encouraging toward one another in their shared objectives ... to swing like Moe.
Which raises a couple of other issues which then developed in this stream.
1) Your stated 'eclectic' approach to swing mechanics ... depending upon where you are on the golf course and what club is in your hand. ???
My immediate reaction to your determination to this eclectic approach was ... Why make it more complicated? It would appear to me if you're now employing varying swing techniques you would increase your probablities of error. ???
As I understand it on this forum we deal with the Moe mechanics ... with the exception possibly being in the short game. And in that regard the Graves boys try to keep it simple ... so that we may work toward a consistent, repeatable swing that produces increased accuracy. (It seems so much easier to work towards achieving one technique ... rather than trying to juggle several techniques.)
2) Your stated loss of distance off the tee.
This is a problem which seems to visit some of us ... while others of us celebrate increased distance off the tee, with Moe's methodology.
Personally? I'd like to hear Todd explain this. Why some of us may know increased distance and others less in trying to swing like Moe.
My personal experience was increased length with every club. (Whereas I've found the distance I knew 20 years ago.) And I attribute this to the NG proclamation that the technique has us hitting the ball in the center of the clubhead. (That and the proper equipment.)
I think I would reflect everyone's attitude in welcoming you to this forum. I've read other of your posts and found them interesting and thought provoking.
But perhaps it should be clarified that on this forum we're trying to swing like Moe ... which is sufficient challenge for the likes of me. Most especially it's sufficient as many of our members attribute their single digit and scratch handicaps to the instruction of the Graves lads.
Regards,
Gazza
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| Just Woods and Wedges |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 16:04:50
arush,
It's not that I'm committed to multiple systems...I just haven't been exposed to one that works across my whole game so I have patched together something to get me by until that comes along. Maybe TGGS is an answer; haven't had the opportunity many of you have had to experience Todd's instruction first hand. If it would work for me, no question but that I would just use one system or model. I'm not wedded to what I'm doing if shown something superior.
Just out of curiosity, arush, when did you start NG and when did you switch to Todd's particular instructional style of NG? Also, how often and how long have you practiced and taken lessons before it (Todd's model) clicked with you? What is a reasonable expectation of time required to learn Todd's style of NG if one went to the range twice a week and played 18 once a week?
Your opinion is valued.
JWW
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| arush |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 15:39:25
JWW
My final thoughts on the issue.
My point: Moe was more accurate than the best pros today. The pros have access and use the best teachers in the game including Peltz. Thus when some one tells me they are switching to a more accurate system, I say great but I know the statistics support my choice. Every one is entitled to do their own thing so if it is working I say go for it.
Sounds like you are fully committed to using multiple systems. I am glad it has improved your game. I think we are all trying to do that.
I guess what works for you won't work for me. When I first switched to NG, I still kept some lower body turns and and a bigger backswing. It took a while for me to understand but I know I have to commit to one method to improve. I just don't have the practice time or the skill to try to master multiple systems.
I hope it continues to work well for you and that you quickly master the driving.
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| Just Woods and Wedges |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 15:30:53
Well, he certainly had more nerve than I :)!
Playing in a member-guest at Southern Hills would be a big deal to me; with only two days to go before the tournament, I would have, without a doubt, stayed with what I had and instituted a major change the day after the member-guest.
But I appreciate your philosophy. As a practical matter, I guess it just depended upon how unique an experience playing at Southern Hills was for him (if he was the guest). If it was not a big deal, then opt for the change right away....which he did.
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| Toddg |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 12:21:08
I see my job as being helpful so that each student "learns" what is correct and incorrect.
Everyone wants to play well. Sometimes it is important to stop playing in order to make the changes to play well. Unless you are a very advanced player, YOU CAN NOT MAKE A CHANGE ON THE GOLF COURSE OR EVEN DAYS BEFORE. Changes take time and practice. Then they take time and practice on the course.
Even so, I told the student exactly what he needed to to. Fix the clubface (grip) and then release the club. I asked him if he was willing to struggle for the tournament and if he really wanted to make that change. HE said yes. So I changed him. He struggled. He played poorly in the tournament.
I did what he expected me to do, help him be better and work toward the model so that in the long run, he would improve.
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