| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 06:49:06
Let me say, before I start this post that I admire Todd and Tim, and the manner in which they run their business greatly. Just first rate.
Tim wrote an excellent email this week. In that email, he indicated some surprise, with his students, at the, seemingly, lack of understanding and execution, when it comes to fundamentals.
He (Tim), then, went on to demonstrate a person utilizing the "NG" grip, indicating how that was not correct, but the way Todd was demonstrating was correct (actually, that "poser" position wasn't correct either, Todd, but close-enough for government work).
However, I think we must realize that Todd, himself, on some one million videos, was, first-hand, responsible, as model, for disseminating wrong information in 1996, with the original NG videos with Jack K. At least, wrong, in being part of a system that, wrongfully, suggested a person could swing like Moe with the 1996 NG.
You see, the grip, of which Tim was critical, is, actually, VERY logical to a lot of people, becasue of a HISTORY of bad fundamentals being revealed to single-axis aspirants.
I have always thought that Todd has a historical responsibility, because he was a part of these teaching errors in 1996, to go back and make a video to demonstrate all the errors that have been made in trying to get you to swing like Moe, and to explain all the CRAPOLA that Moe spews forth, good-intentioned or not. Further, in this regard, Todd has the soul (spirit) to do this correctly, as part of the life that he leads in purpose.
At some point, somebody with authority, like Todd, has to make a realistic video about Moe, and explain the errors, explain Moe's false statements, and WHY HE MAKES THEM. Explain to people why Moe repeats phrases from Bertholy and other instructors, when, in fact, these "tips" are not part of his stystem, but, rather, a display of emotional disorder on his part. I don't know why those most closely associated with Moe don't want to reveal the true Moe so that people can have understanding of the man, an incredible man, considering what he was dealing with emotionally. Start with the Jack K. interview in 1996 and move right through the videos on the golf channel and explain to people why Moe isn't really talking to you but repeating phrases, and why he has those sudden outbursts of anger. Let people know Moe.
I started with NG in 1996, with Todd on the NG videos and two years later switched over to the Journeyman tape, and just studied Moe himself. That's when I first started to get understanding.
People have to understand that Moe could memorize self-help tips, and golf tips, and repeat them back to people, when they had absolutely no revelance to his own swing. You can start with all the Bertholy crapola. Moe's swing was well established long before Bertholy!! He loves Bertholy, because he loves that self-help rhyming, memorization kind of information, and he flung it at Jack K. in his first interview as his own. That's just the way Moe is.
So start with that original NG grip, and explain that away right from the start!! Why? Because the rest of the CRAPOLA that Moe talks about looks logical with that grip!! Let me give you some examples. When Moe holds the club between his fingers so that the club moves like a pendelum, and he explains that is his motion. Wrong. When Moe says his club is square to the ball 22 inches before and after the ball. Wrong. When Moe says at the end of his swing that he should drop the club and it will land flat to the ground. Wrong. When Moe says at the end of the swing he could eat eags off his clubface. Wrong. When Moe says he buries his hands in his back pocket on the downswing. Wrong. (This is a repeating of a golf tip he has read). All of these wrong comments support the logic of the bad grip that Tim pointed out (the grip is in error; not Tim), and it is ALL WRONG.
No wonder people have the fundamentals wrong. However, there should be a specific tape made to explain ALL OF THESE ERRORS and why Moe made them, and how swing developers wrongly interpreted his swing in order to promote their own agenda. Who better to do this than Todd, as he was part of instilling these errors to start. Todd is the embediment of the evolution.
The essence of Moe's swing is that the right hand does not cross over the left. I think it helps to see that other golf have done this, like Homero Blancas (hope I got that right). The grip is important and people, when they are learning, have to learn to grip the club at waist level, and then put the head to the ground, OR,better yet, take the swing into the second base position and grip up out there, and, then, learn the swing by going backwards.
Almost everything that Moe says about his swing is technically WRONG. No wonder people don't have a grasp of the fundamentals. Further, you get people on television with Moe, like Shankland, and much of what he says is wrong, about Moe's swing, as he makes CG comparisons to Moe's swing.
How about it Todd. Would you ever consider making such a tape?
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| jaavenor |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 17:07:54
Mr. Remington: Life is about refinement of skills - often learning from mistakes in the past and capitalizing on new methods for the future. I've been a follower of NG for years and while my game improved with NG - it reached a certain level and never got better. Thank God for Todd and Tim - their decision to refine the teaching and take it to the next step. I can't contemplate questioning these professionals (Tim and Todd) for the past - when the future is so positive. If you don't understand what I'm saying - then please attend one of their schools - I guarantee your game will improve just as mine has.
I can't understand what I perceive is negative thinking and dwelling on the past. Take stock in the future, Mr. Remington, learn from mistakes and capitalize. Be Positive!! |
| jaavenor |
Posted - 12/04/2005 : 17:02:56
Mr. Remington: Life is about refinement of skills - often learning from mistakes in the past and capitalizing on new methods for the future. I've been a follower of NG for years and while my game improved with NG - it reached a certain level and never got better. Thank God for Todd and Tim - their decision to refine the teaching and take it to the next step. I can't contemplate questioning these professionals (Tim and Todd) for the past - when the future is so positive. If you don't understand what I'm saying - then please attend one of their schools - I guarantee your game will improve just as mine has.
I can't understand what I perceive is negative thinking and dwelling on the past. Take stock in the future, Mr. Remington, learn from mistakes and capitalize. Be Positive!! |
| PapaDave |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 08:53:11
While I am new to these forums, I have been playing what I call "Graves Golf" for about 18 months and now shoot in the 80's regularly. I only took up golf in 2003 and credit Todd and Tim with every bit of success I have had. Living in East Central Mississippi, I have learned from the 7 Principles DVD's and here's my point, I HAVE UNDERSTOOD FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, THAT WHAT MOE SAID AND FELT DIFFERED FROM WHAT HE ACTUALLY DID! My feeling is that Todd has gone to great (and sufficient) lengths to point these differences out and help students build on a foundation of fundamentals that will lead to progress. The techniques that Tim teaches, especially for pitching, I have seen NOWHERE else, and voila, they have really worked for me. I am thinking about attending a school, not so much because of need, but rather out of a desire to actually meet these guys who have helped me so much! |
| Jesse H |
Posted - 11/18/2005 : 06:29:35
Wazzupp D and Razz,Im gonna start a thread in January for Pre little Moe get together, I already told my wife to expect a bunch of people staying at the house for the tourney since I have the room and it's right down the road from Eagle Creek and she is more than cool with it. Save you guys some hotel expenses Expect a thread started early January guys in the Current events section. Good to hear from you guys...
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| doc9 |
Posted - 11/17/2005 : 20:42:43
quote:
Originally posted by wey
Hey Dan. Good work with the paragraphs!
Best,
Walt
Coachable, thats all. I'm just coachable.
to be sure though. I have no idea when to end or start one. I'm just trying to break it up so you all can read it a bit better by taking breaks. I talk out loud as I'm typing and when I take a breath I start a new one.
I went to a technical school. I was learning sheet metal, not grammar. I mean we had those classes but I really wasn't paying much attention, they were just 2 weeks off from shop for me you know? But thanks for noticing I'm trying. Later Walt. Dan |
| wey |
Posted - 11/17/2005 : 18:36:24
Hey Dan. Good work with the paragraphs!
Best,
Walt |
| RAZMAN |
Posted - 11/17/2005 : 16:16:21
Yep, 3 putts were not uncommon that day for sure. Jesse did putt those well however. Imagine that. Jesse will eat your lunch at north shore. Great course. Hope to make it down there this year. Jesse if you read this we'll all have to get to talking and see who can play again this year.Take care . Steve Clay |
| doc9 |
Posted - 11/17/2005 : 13:57:00
I played there twice and still didn't get the speed right.lol. They are fast. |
| BigE |
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 17:20:24
Doc,
Yep...played at North Shore...and no doubt the greens were quick...but you'd think I'd figure it out after 16 or 17 holes...
:)
BigE |
| doc9 |
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 12:53:54
First off I'm done speaking on the subject of a guy? who doesn't seem to own any of the GGA's tapes or have been to a school of theirs. And yet he seems to be someone who feels hes the one who can dictate to our instructors what they should do for Histories sake.Please! I don't like his? tone on the subject of Moe so I'll just not comment any more and keep this thread going. Let it die a quick death.
Eric. I may have a clue as to why you couldn't putt with Jesse. That is if you played at North Shore. The greens are Linoleum. Man , I have played some fast greens but boy I couldn't believe how fast his greens are down there. Maybe it is because they were so wet that I was expecting something else but they were definately quick. At least they were when we all got together on them last year b4 the little Moe.
Good to hear from you J. |
| BigE |
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 05:09:17
A little off topic....
But I have to say I really enjoyed playing with Jesse H. What a gentlemen, and a lot of fun be with. No doubt he was a much better advertisement for GGA than me (I lost a ton of short game strokes, couldn't putt for some reason). First time I ever got to play with another "Swing Like Moe" player outside of a camp/school.
And I probably most enjoyed our time on the range afterwards - light conversation, sharing tips, trying each others clubs - an absolute blast!
A great guy!!! Thanks for the time and round Jesse.....
BigE |
| Jesse H |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 20:36:34
HeyMoe and Steve gr8 to hear from you, let me know what your plans are for the lil moe tourney. Guess we should talk about it on another thread as we get closer to the event. Can't wait to tee it up with you guys. |
| golfer_dude |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 18:01:15
whew!! -- deep sigh here......
To answer the question of why I am in NG Hall of Fame -- a 50% drop in USGA handicap from 20.8 to 10.1 -- took me 18 months but I did it.
It seems like the evolution of the single-axis swing and the evolution of different companies coupled with the early adoption by many folks of the single-axis swing with one company resulted in some very bitter feelings. (How's that for a convoluted understatement?)
Many people who are early adopters of a product (how many of you remember the Pinto or the Gremlin?) can get burned.
My apologies to all who were offended by anything I said.
Mark
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| baldelli |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 17:10:23
Hard to read the whole thread over a couple of days and not have some input.
Suffice it to say that maybe Remingtonii just wants the true story of his hero, Moe Norman be told by one that knows his swing the most before someone else does..or, is a philosopher trying to illicit responses to analyze. ????
I, myself, just want to Swing like Moe!! Thanks TnT for that!
Jesse, good to hear from you again.
Steve |
| Geo |
Posted - 11/15/2005 : 15:34:05
Glad the thread got moved. First of all, I don't think this thread was really a flame war. If it was, it was very mild. I disagreed with the OP in that I did not believe that the Graves had to do any or all of what the OP insisted was the only right thing to do.
It was his opinion but he laid it out as if he was the expert on the subject.
I think the Graves do an outstanding job and do not need to apologize for anything they have done. |
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