| Author |
 Topic  |
|
n/a
deleted
40 Posts |
 Posted - 11/12/2005 : 06:49:06
|
Let me say, before I start this post that I admire Todd and Tim, and the manner in which they run their business greatly. Just first rate.
Tim wrote an excellent email this week. In that email, he indicated some surprise, with his students, at the, seemingly, lack of understanding and execution, when it comes to fundamentals.
He (Tim), then, went on to demonstrate a person utilizing the "NG" grip, indicating how that was not correct, but the way Todd was demonstrating was correct (actually, that "poser" position wasn't correct either, Todd, but close-enough for government work).
However, I think we must realize that Todd, himself, on some one million videos, was, first-hand, responsible, as model, for disseminating wrong information in 1996, with the original NG videos with Jack K. At least, wrong, in being part of a system that, wrongfully, suggested a person could swing like Moe with the 1996 NG.
You see, the grip, of which Tim was critical, is, actually, VERY logical to a lot of people, becasue of a HISTORY of bad fundamentals being revealed to single-axis aspirants.
I have always thought that Todd has a historical responsibility, because he was a part of these teaching errors in 1996, to go back and make a video to demonstrate all the errors that have been made in trying to get you to swing like Moe, and to explain all the CRAPOLA that Moe spews forth, good-intentioned or not. Further, in this regard, Todd has the soul (spirit) to do this correctly, as part of the life that he leads in purpose.
At some point, somebody with authority, like Todd, has to make a realistic video about Moe, and explain the errors, explain Moe's false statements, and WHY HE MAKES THEM. Explain to people why Moe repeats phrases from Bertholy and other instructors, when, in fact, these "tips" are not part of his stystem, but, rather, a display of emotional disorder on his part. I don't know why those most closely associated with Moe don't want to reveal the true Moe so that people can have understanding of the man, an incredible man, considering what he was dealing with emotionally. Start with the Jack K. interview in 1996 and move right through the videos on the golf channel and explain to people why Moe isn't really talking to you but repeating phrases, and why he has those sudden outbursts of anger. Let people know Moe.
I started with NG in 1996, with Todd on the NG videos and two years later switched over to the Journeyman tape, and just studied Moe himself. That's when I first started to get understanding.
People have to understand that Moe could memorize self-help tips, and golf tips, and repeat them back to people, when they had absolutely no revelance to his own swing. You can start with all the Bertholy crapola. Moe's swing was well established long before Bertholy!! He loves Bertholy, because he loves that self-help rhyming, memorization kind of information, and he flung it at Jack K. in his first interview as his own. That's just the way Moe is.
So start with that original NG grip, and explain that away right from the start!! Why? Because the rest of the CRAPOLA that Moe talks about looks logical with that grip!! Let me give you some examples. When Moe holds the club between his fingers so that the club moves like a pendelum, and he explains that is his motion. Wrong. When Moe says his club is square to the ball 22 inches before and after the ball. Wrong. When Moe says at the end of his swing that he should drop the club and it will land flat to the ground. Wrong. When Moe says at the end of the swing he could eat eags off his clubface. Wrong. When Moe says he buries his hands in his back pocket on the downswing. Wrong. (This is a repeating of a golf tip he has read). All of these wrong comments support the logic of the bad grip that Tim pointed out (the grip is in error; not Tim), and it is ALL WRONG.
No wonder people have the fundamentals wrong. However, there should be a specific tape made to explain ALL OF THESE ERRORS and why Moe made them, and how swing developers wrongly interpreted his swing in order to promote their own agenda. Who better to do this than Todd, as he was part of instilling these errors to start. Todd is the embediment of the evolution.
The essence of Moe's swing is that the right hand does not cross over the left. I think it helps to see that other golf have done this, like Homero Blancas (hope I got that right). The grip is important and people, when they are learning, have to learn to grip the club at waist level, and then put the head to the ground, OR,better yet, take the swing into the second base position and grip up out there, and, then, learn the swing by going backwards.
Almost everything that Moe says about his swing is technically WRONG. No wonder people don't have a grasp of the fundamentals. Further, you get people on television with Moe, like Shankland, and much of what he says is wrong, about Moe's swing, as he makes CG comparisons to Moe's swing.
How about it Todd. Would you ever consider making such a tape?
|
|
|
bobperry22
USA
369 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 08:20:40
|
I don't know if this is an appropriate place to repond to this post, but her goes anyway.
My first reaction was to be very defensive towards Todd and Tim. Afterall, I feel like they have given me a great gift in helping me to play this game that I love so much better. It was in thinking about all that they have done for me (and so many others) that my response to your post took shape.
I have to agree with much of what you said about being initially lead astray by the original NG teachings. I took lessons from one of there teachers and tried "their system" for about 2 years with little positive results. I too, found Todd and Tim and a much better game.
True, I think the grip that Todd has finally got me to use is different from the grip he displayed on the original NG tapes. Different in that it has evolved as Todd has spent time teaching and understanding the grip/swing and how to translate it to his students.
I know that Todd understands Moe's grip/swing and overall game far better today than he did in those early days. I also think that he knew early on that NG was not really getting the whole thing - one of the reasons they "parted company" (I know there were business reasons as well, but if you really pushed Todd, I know that the teaching methods and lack of understanding for what Moe was trying to accomplish with his swing was the true driving force).
Getting out from under the NG umbrella allowed Todd to teach the swing/grip the way he was understanding it. Like any great teacher, the methods and lessons TGGS uses with their students have continued to evolve and change to better suit the individuals. Also, and this is important, you didn't get advanced calculus your first day of first grade! In other words, as your golf mind has evolved, you better understand and begin to "hear" the lessons being taught. I have been reviewing video tapes that I have been sending to Todd for the past couple of years. As I listen to his comments, they are consistant. He has been working on a slight grip change and arm swing since my first lesson with him over 2 years ago. Todd has been consistant, I just haven't understood enough about my swing to really understand and embrace the changes. This past week, the light has finally dawned on marble head and I am hitting the best shots of my life. The point is that your swing belongs to you. What you are trying to accomplish, and what you are actually doing are often two very different things. Just look at your swing on video - it will shock you. Often times, you are not coming close to the motions you are "feeling" in your swing.
This leads me to my last point (for now). You say that Moe was misleading in what he said as oppose to what he did. Also, you say that Todd should make a tape to "correct" all of these mis statements by Moe and Todd (early on). First of all, I think Moe was trying to communicate what he actually felt he was doing. Moe felt like his hands never rotated through the swing - watch the tape of him and you know this is not true. Moe was simply describing what he felt he was doing. I know that Moe had never seen his swing on video until NG and Todd started to tape him. I wonder if he even watched any of those tapes of his own swing?! I think Moe was simply describing what he felt his body was doing after millions of repititions. True, Moe had some emotional issues. I think that all the attention he recieved at the end of his life did affect him. I think once he embraced the idea of people wanting to copy his swing and paying him so much attention he may have fed into it a little bit (wouldn't we all). Suddenly, a man who spoke very little - only to a very small group of trusted freinds - was speaking to the world. I am sure a few "Moeisms" got blown out of proportion. (No worse than any 19th hole on any given Sunday).
As far as Todd making a tape to "correct these errors" you simply haven't been paying close attention. If you go back and listen to the tapes (even the very early TGGS tapes) you will here Todd say many times, "this is what Moe felt like he was doing - but the reality is ...." A perfect example is when Todd teaches the grip and release of the club. Todd has done a good job of trying to interpert what Moe was saying. Moe was trying to describe what he was feeling - Todd has to translate these feelings into physical motion. If you really listen, I think he has done a good job. If you think Moe was talking "crapola" go back and read Hogan and get your hands on some video of him and his swing - not the 2 second clips on the golf channel but some footage of his swing on the course.
I know that we all feel a little "burned" by NG in that they weren't really teaching us how to get where we want to be. Like may parts of life, however, I think this has been and continues to be a journey. The teachings of TGGS will continue to evolve, as hopefully so will our games. I think Tood and Tim are doing the best they can to get the word out.
Just my 2 cents - I need to get to the practice range! |
Bob Perry |
 |
|
|
edmp
USA
1299 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 08:29:08
|
Remingtonii,
I think you might be being a little over analyaticaL.I think Todd and Tim already have produced the tapes that precisely describe the way Moe played golf.To me,at least ,it would be confusing and counter productive to hash over Moe Normans idiosyncrocies.Also,I believe alot of the things you mentioned that Moe said were his articulations of feelings he had that are valid.For example the back pocket metaphore promotes the inside out motion that Todd and Tim teach.
From previous posts of yours I read ,I suspect that you recognize that what we are feeling is not always what we are doing.Even the great Tiger Woods often speaks to that and I assume is why he has a coach.Many of those feelings that Moe stated ,although maybe not precisely correct have helped me develop the proper moves through feeling.Todd and Tim do often in their tapes make the distinction between what Moe said he felt and what he actually did.In other words I think the GGA tapes we have already do what you suggest.Regarding Todd being responsible for bad info,I feel that is overstating the facts.During his tenure with Natural Golf he had the great oppurtunity to work directly with Moe and study and learn.Consequently,as his knowledge of Moes swing grew and evolved so has his instruction.
Part of the true genius of Moe I believe was his offbeat methods and out of the box thinking.I like to stay in the present moment and appreciate what is being currently offered.With that said I appreciate your sentiment just dont buy in to it.Just offering another point of view no offense intended. |
|
|
|
Geo
USA
282 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 12:16:04
|
Remingtonii,
No disrespect to you in any way, however, I find Todd and Tim's philosophy and practices as A1 stuff. I admire these guys for lots of reasons and one of them is that they do not say negative things about others including NG. I also think that Todd is an expert on Moe.
I don't know your background, but you certainly talk like you know Moe more than most. Problem with me anyway, is that you haven't shown the walk with the talk.
I know that when I see posts from individuals on the Instruction Corner, I read the questions and read Todd and Tim's replies only. I know everyone is good intentioned, but I am certainly not going to put any weight on what those others think is the correct answer.
Personally, I think that this thread belongs in another part of this forum. |
geo |
|
|
|
TGGS
Administrator
USA
1919 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 16:11:05
|
Remingtonii - I have followed your other treads in other forums and we are not going to get in a semantics debate here. That is not what we are here for.
Questions for you - What instructional material do you have our ours?
Have you studied that instructional material?
We produced are instructional material for the exact points you described above - to help bridge the gaps between what Moe said and actually did and all the CONFUSION brought about by other instructional material.
Next question for you - How many words does Todd say on the LTOBG video made in 1996 by NG? The answer is 0. The positions, wording, etc.. was done by NG - Todd was used as the model as he was the closest to Moe Norman and they thought he was a good representation of the average golfer, etc..
The reason we produced the Total Game Overview Instructional material is for the reasons you described. Todd spent many years evaluating Moe's swing and has spent (continues to do so) years trying to describe and demonstrate the swing to golfers.
Next statement for you - Describe what you feel in your swing vs. what you really do. As a professional instruction I will tell you right now that 99.99% of students and very good players have a very hard time describing the feeling of the swing to others and comparing that to what they really do... Moe was the same.
Question - How much video of his own swing do you think Moe actually saw? Especially in his prime.... very, very little, if any. When he described his swing it was always a feeling, not what he saw. That is why what Todd and the staff at the GGA has done and is doing is unique to the industry.
Question - Have you ever taken your swing and compared it to Moe's on a video system (for example, a V1 system, etc..)? There is not much more telling evidence of what you are doing vs. what Moe did than to compare your swing vs. his swing. I hope you have.. then all the descriptions of the positions would mean very little because you could see what the differences are.
FYI Mr. Remingtonii - The grip that I was describing was a student who had NEVER studied any NG fundamentals - he was actually with a friend who brought him to the school as a "golf weekend". I was not being critical of this student, I was merely stating what is very typical among many students as they become result oriented vs. detail (individual detail) oriented. So, you comment "You see, the grip, of which Tim was critical, is, actually, VERY logical to a lot of people, because of a HISTORY of bad fundamentals being revealed to single-axis aspirants." is completely irrelevant in this situation.
We strive to be the best single axis instruction in the industry and the sources for the Moe Norman Single Axis Swing. There is a history of Todd and NG (actually I even worked for NG for a while..) but, when NG decided to get away from Moe's swing, that is where we made the break.
Finally - I would strongly suggest anyone who wants to see what Moe did and learn about his swing to get our instructional material - please feel free to comment, dissect, etc.. that material compared to Moe's swing anytime - that is what we are here for.
Tim Graves
timg@swinglikemoe.com
866-377-2316
|
|
|
|
Jimblob
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 19:04:16
|
Right on, Tim!
Jimblob |
|
|
|
scuffy44
USA
198 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 19:06:18
|
Bravo..well said Tim. No matter if your changing jobs, or golf instructors it's a decision to hopefully take us down a better path in life. I switched and the results are proof. I will continue to follow Tim and Todd to the my scratch golf game. Thanks Tim and Todd for making the decision to lead us down that path.. Looking forward to seeing both of you again soon.
Living in the present not the past..scuffy44 |
3 day school 2005
2 day alumni 2006
3 day school 2008 |
|
|
|
Toddg
Administrator
USA
2227 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 20:08:44
|
Let me tell you a story. It was around 1997, the beginning of the production of the Natural Golf LOBG. We were filming in St. Petersburg Florida. I was nothing more than a young aspiring professional with talent and professional golf experience who was completely sold on Moe Norman....I as having a conversation at lunch with two of the cast members for the video. I was talking about Moe's golf swing and one of the cast members asked me if I had some video of Moe that I could send him because he had never seen Moe on video before. What might shock you is that person who asked me was the director for NG instruction. Let me tell you, it shocked me! I couldn't believe the lead NG instructor had never seen Moe Norman swing a club on video. I had very little input into the LOBG videos POST production. As a matter of fact, I wanted to change some of the pictures in the book but Golf Digest said that it was too late. I had NO control over any of the representation of the material.
But, I must say, at the time, I was also in an evolutionary place in my life. I was learning from Moe and I appreciate all of the time Moe spent with me and all of the video I took so I could study.
The videos we produce today are exactly that representation of my evolution. What I find even more exciting sometimes is that when I review the videos, I impress myself. It is difficult to produce a video...it is difficult to communicate and it is difficult to reach the many types of learners out there without too much confusion. Videos don't just create themselves, we deliberate sometimes on every word that we use.
What you see in the NG instructional material is a scientists interpretation of a sinlge axis swing. It is analyzed, taken apart and then given to you in the LOBG for you to put back together. What I have done is somewhat different. I am not taking it apart and having you put it back together, I am asking Moe to explain it to me and then I am taking his explanation and bridging the gap between his feelings and he reality of what is happening. Then I am teaching you what is happeining and showing you how to get there whith some guidance from Moe and his feelings. In other words I am modeling Moe with his help.
Natural Golf began as a GREAT idea. If it would have evolved, I would still be involved with them today. And, Yes, I have tried more times than you can imagine to get NG to listen to me about how to turn things around so that they can evolve into a helpful company that gives people helpful and accurate information especially when it comes to Moe Norman and his swing.
As far as producing another video, I believe Tim said it quite eloquently...we already have. Tim and I also believe that we are dealing with a techonology and when I watch our videos, I dont' know what I would change other than maybe my black socks. Our time is spent finding better ways to communicate this technology and helping the many diverse individuals use their learning styles to grasp it. That is a large enough challenge for now.
Thanks.
Todd |
|
|
|
edmp
USA
1299 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 20:58:09
|
Todd,
The socks would be an improvement on an otherwise perfect product.
Chuck |
|
|
|
wey
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 22:16:27
|
Many of us are on a journey trying to learn a better way to swing a golf club. On that journey, I first heard a story about Moe Norman that was caught me attention. It was in Reader's Digest. The man was incredible. I then heard about Natural Golf a few years later. I then was lucky enough to attend a Graves Golf School. It worked for me. I don't need to understand the science. I just want to continue to learn from the masters. I'm sure there are other good or even great teachers who teach a different swing. I don't have time to try them all or try to understand them all. I just want to understand my own helped by Todd and Tim as I attend more schools.
I think it is non productive to clutter your mind with why this is wrong or why the other is right. Go to the teachers that can get you to improve your swing. Todd and Tim are the best, their teaching works. I didn't have the pleasure of knowing Moe. I feel lucky to know Todd and Tim.
Walter
|
|
|
|
HeyMoe
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 22:50:01
|
Remingtonii,
On this forum (unlike some others) we are here to learn and go forward, not to argue about the past. As I recall, you tried this before and it did not work then, so it will not work now. Just my two cents.
HeyMoe |
|
|
|
doc9
USA
1367 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 00:14:51
|
Let me just say this b4 I write this I have read some of remingtons posts and he does a good job at making his point, really first class.....
Isn't it so easy to see when someone doesn't have the material that has been produced by the planets best single axis instructors?
Sometimes you will read a question or the way a question is put and you just know that the person is in the early stages of the journey And you feel good knowing that that person is in the right place to get his game and swing in shape. This makes me feel good somehow, I don't know exactly why. Maybe its remembering when I was BG (Before Graves),or maybe its just knowing that that persons life will never be the same because hes just found the best possible web site that any golfer with an open mind can find.
But then there are those posts by folks that you know are there just to pi$$ people off. Thats the one we have started here. I mean who comes to a forum about Moe Norman and says that Moe intentionally misled or worse what he said was crappola. What an a$$. Its so easy to see that this dolt doesn't own a single piece of 'Graves instruction or hasn't figured out how to put it in the machine yet.
Honestly , it there anyone on this forum who has seen the GGA's tapes and is "confused" by what Moe says? How about this "new" saying, what you feel isn't real? There wasn't any video tapes when Moe was digging his swing out of the dirt. There were only his feelings and those feelings of his led him to be a pretty good ballstriker wouldn't you say? I wonder how many 59's our "friend" remington has shot?Well how could he, after all the man whos swing hes' supposedly trying to emulate thoughts were crappola.
Dude do yourself a favor, before you come back and make a bigger a$$ of yourself, plunk down some of that college money you never spent on tuition and get the real material on the single axis swing.
How could you be so insolent? You come to the Moe Norman board to disparrage our instructors and the legend our swing is modeled after,man some people. Stop blameing your crooked swing on Moe's feelings and get the real truth behind those thoughts that is broken down for you on the overview tapes or better yet the 7 principles tapes. They are garranteed! If you still have the piss and moans after that then good luck on your new tennis lessons. brings to mind one of my favorite movie lines. " lifes to short to go around fat, drunk , and stupid." Just because you say at the front of your letter you respect someone for whatever reason doesn't all the sudden make it all right to blast them or their mentor, get it? later,Dan |
Edited by - doc9 on 11/13/2005 00:34:57 |
|
|
|
scuffy44
USA
198 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 05:38:19
|
I have two questions.
1. Does he work for Natural golf?
2. I'm not suppose to wear BLACK SOCKS? |
3 day school 2005
2 day alumni 2006
3 day school 2008 |
|
|
|
scuffy44
USA
198 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 05:43:10
|
Does anyone want to buy 20 pairs of black socks?
I thought to imitate the swing I had to wear black socks. Well here I go making another change. |
3 day school 2005
2 day alumni 2006
3 day school 2008 |
|
|
|
BigE
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 07:47:57
|
Just my 2 cents......
Tim's comments about grips/setup etc are because they (Tim & Todd) truly want us to get better. Not only for us, but also for them!! As businessmen, their motivations/goals are in line with ours (which is great) - because if we don't get better - it's a bad reflection on them and not good for business.
I can understand their frustration - as they want everyone to realize their full golf potential. If a guy plunks a $1,000 down to come to a school and learn Moe's swing, but then doesn't bother to focus on the most basic of basics (grip & setup). He will NEVER, EVER, stand even a remote chance of learning Moe's swing and getting better. Both Tim & Todd could be very patient with this UNTIL the guy starts to think that the Moe Norman swing doesn't work. He thinks "I just paid a $1,000, spent 3 days of my time learning a swing - and I'm still hitting the ball as crappy as ever" (or, in many cases, because he's doing something different - he actually is hitting the ball worse!). Then this guy starts to tell other guys that the swing doesn't work....and the word spreads. Or the guy never bothers to come back. And in reality, the guy never even got off the ground in trying to learn a new swing....so in essence he is slamming a swing that he really didn't bother to learn. He never gave it a chance.....man, that would really frustrate me as an instructor....
I think part of this is the golf hype we're always used to hearing.
....7 minutes to a better golf swing
....do this or that tip and take strokes off your handicap TODAY....
....change to this club or putter and solve all of your short game problems.
We're used to - and want - instant gratification from our golf. Hearing that we have to take hours or months to learn learn a grip and setup? That we need to practice it, video it, get feedback on it so that we know it's right? Whew....sounds like a lot of work. And we haven't even got to the swinging part yet!!!
And I have to admit, that I am one of these very slow learners (thank you Todd, Tim, and Jared, for all your patience...). It took me a good 6 months before I could set up to the ball without Todd or Tim changing something - my grip, my spine tilt, my shoulder alignment, my arm extension, etc etc. I finally have that down, and now I know it's going to be awhile before I can get the club back on plane (I did that for the first time at this last school I was at - but it still feels weird being "on plane" - so I have a lot of practice time ahead of me). Am I frustrated by this? No, because I know I don't video myself and get the correct feedback as often as I should. I'm busy with work and family, which makes me a little bit lazy with my golf practice. I understand and accept this.....
BUT, I know I'm in for the long haul. I know this swing is the simplest and most effective out there. I know Tim/Todd/Jared are great teachers. I know they want me to get better. So I also know that my rate of progress is up to ME. So I value their patience, but I know they understand that I never blame them for any of my lack of progress. I WILL get it eventually. I'm already on my way....
I think that was all Tim was trying to convey.
BigE
|
|
|
|
TGGS
Administrator
USA
1919 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
A HISTORY of bad fundamentals
